eamesuser
Registered: 09-2007
Posts: 5
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bearing edge question
I have some tuning issures with my cleve rogers the 12 tom batter side was pretty tricky to tune 14 ft would get slappy at low tunings batter side kick had a spot that was harder to get even tension with rest of drum so I took them apart got a level and found a spot on my coffee table that seems to be flat got a flashlight stuck it in drums found a definite dip in edge on 12 batter side slight dip in reso side kick,really could'nt see any thing on 14 floor but the rim seems to be a little bent,I tried to bend it back by using edge of table no luck though.I know that an edge needs to be level but can the edge not be true or even laterally and affect the tuning?Should I just send them to a shop and have them checked and then recut? Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.
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9/15/2007, 8:44 am
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LongRoll
Guru Emeritus
Registered: 04-2007
Posts: 662
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Re: bearing edge question
Please give more information, like the kind of sound your trying to get, what type of heads your using.
Sometimes drummers want to use vintage drums for kind of sound that vintage drums can't achieve.
Rogers toms seem to work best with Remo Coated Ambassador Heads with the bottom head higher pitched than the top.
Bass drums work well with single ply coated head on front (Remo Coated Ambassador) with or without a felt strip and the same on the batter side or a Coated Remo PS-3 or similar type head.
The early Holiday style bearing edges have a limited tuning range, the later bearing edges after 1963/64 have a wider tuning range, and of coarse the XP-8s are more like todays bearing edges, and have a very wide tuning range and considerably more volume.
Without more info from you it is hard to help. Keep in mind that once you cut the bearing edges that the value of the drum goes down because they are no longer original.
Bruce
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9/15/2007, 12:34 pm
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mainedrummer
Dyna-Sonic Member
Registered: 04-2007
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 1471
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Re: bearing edge question
I think it is critical you get a known, perfectly flat surface to do this test before having any work done on the bearing edge.
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9/15/2007, 6:09 pm
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Rogersoholic
Dyna-Sonic Member
Registered: 04-2007
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Re: bearing edge question
I think the 14" Fl is also a very hard drum to work with if your not use to it. Bruce is also right about the heads. 2 ply will just go pluuuugh when you hit em and are harder to tune as well with the earlier edges.. This is food for thought topic tho, as far as when your edges should be cut or how to care for them. I dont know myself and have never done it..
--- ....... I BUY ROGERS DRUMS! PM ME!......
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9/15/2007, 8:34 pm
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eamesuser
Registered: 09-2007
Posts: 5
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Re: bearing edge question
Thanks for the replies,the drums l are beavertail/swivo but the ft has sta tite leg holders#41379 20 cleveland,#53134 12 cleveland,#74702 14 ft dayton all are 5 ply ane the edges don't look like the sharp 45 s you see on modern drums but are way sharper than 60s luddys and slings that I have seen with no extra holes or mods the only thing non original far as I can tell is that a few of the screws and washers for the lugs may be unoriginal, so my guess is the ft 67 with maybe the 12 and 20 64 thru 66.I also noticed that the 12 one side had the same length t rods as the rt around 2 1/2 inches where the other t's on 12 were much shorter maybe that is contibuting to the tuning issues on that drum? I have used clear amb and dips on reso of toms with remo renniscance, amb coated, emp clear, clear pinstripe and aquarian two ply clear 7 mm on batter side. ON the kick I have used a variety of heads but have never tried the single ply w felt on the reso, never tried single ply on batter at all .The toms have always tuned more easily with the thicker heads especially at lower tunings with single plys it is difficult to get even tension at lower tunings.I don't play or tune for jazz,I tune the reso a little higher for some pitch bend,when I get them tuned lower with the thicker heads the 20 and epecially the 14 sound really big for their size,I would like to get that with single ply haeds for the mostly blues / blues rock that I do with this kit.By the way these drums are in what I would call in vg condition scratches but no pitting on chrome, wmp faded but not what I would call yellowed,and the fade is pretty even on all the drums.It seeme to me that kits with a 14 are coing for a thousad pretty consistently,If I recut or modify the edges what percentage of value would I lose?I don't plan on selling them and don't want corrupt the integrity of the instrument I just want them to sound the best that they can.By the way bruce I am Marc M at drum forum that you sent the pwer glide cam to and helped me convert,I have the old rolling glide cam if you need or want it. Thanks, Marc
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9/16/2007, 5:54 pm
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jimthedrummer
Registered: 10-2018
Posts: 2
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Re: bearing edge question
Hello this is the guy who posted " Re-cut Rogers Bearing edges that were HORRIBLE"
I have played drums for 50 years and I was a piano technician for twenty.
And I am a guitar player.
1) All of these instruments have bearing/interfaces between the vibrating element and their respective contact to the "body" of the instrument.
1a) Guitars have a bridge and a nut, and BOTH need to be well built and well mated to the guitar or tone and sustain will suffer.
1b) Pianos too have "Interfaces" at both ends of the strings. And Steinway grand pianos have multiple interfaces (Bridges) at the "Near End", and Baldwin Concert Grand Pianos have their own unique way to set "down bearing" angle at the "Far" end after the string passes over the bridge.
1c) so the bearing edge of the drum shell surely is NOT a trivial item.
2 As a piano tech, we spend a LOT of time "Voicing" pianos to bring out the best tone and sustain. Many people think that this is only or mostly about manipulating the portion of the piano mechanism that strikes the string.. (the Hammer)... and while many technicians focus on the hammer... many other technicians spend quite a bit of time before voicing the hammers by ASSURING THAT ALL PARTS/SCREWS/ASSEMBLIES ARE TIGHT AND SECURE AND THAT ALL STRINGS ARE SEATED WELL TO THEIR CONTACT SURFACES. And without these "Basic" steps first, voicing the hammers can be a waste or time.
So...if I may .....
In my humble opinion....
FIRST... MAKE SURE all hardware is secured/ all nuts and bolts are tight...then
1) NO gap in your bearing edge is acceptable
2) new rims are inexpensive....
3) Buy new heads too as imperfection in the bearing or rim might make the previously used head distorted and un-tunable or "Less" tunable. .
The selection of which angle of bearing edge will/might matter to get an EXACT tone..... but ALL of the three items above MUST be "As good as you can get them" first.
I had the same "Slappy" dead sound on BOTH my 12" and my 13".... and it frustrated me when seeing you tube videos of "how to tune" and guys were demonstrating the pitches around the head.... while all i could get was a slappy noise.
I am SURE that my bearing edges were not level.
So I knew that I had to level and re-cut the bearing edges.
And I knew that the heads were going to need to be replaced because the bearing edges probably had ruined the previous heads. And I though that while I was doing all of this investment in time and money, another $14 per each rim.... would remove one more variable.
My drums ... sound ..... better.
Were replacing the rims necessary? I dont know.
But I didnt want bad rims messing up new heads.
SO.... in my opinion... I did spend a lot of money per drum.
2 rims mounts for the 12" and 13" from Ebay $40 total
4 rims.... $50 total
4 heads approx $60 total
repaired one re-ring and trued and re-cut all tom bearing edges.... I did all of the labor myself.
So $150 in money and a few hours in labor.
But I bought these drums in 1973ish and they NEVER sounded great.
I will never be able to buy a Yamaha Phoenix kit.
But for me..... I'm not ashamed to take my Red Onyx Swivomatics anywhere.
Straighten your edges asap and buy new heads and rims as soon as you can.
thx
Last edited by jimthedrummer, 1/27/2019, 12:34 pm
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1/27/2019, 12:12 pm
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tommykat1
XP10 Dyna-Sonic Member
Registered: 06-2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 6274
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Re: bearing edge question
This:
"FIRST... MAKE SURE all hardware is secured/ all nuts and bolts are tight...then
1) NO gap in your bearing edge is acceptable"
Duh!!!
With Rogers drums through the closure of the company in 1984, you won't have an issue with bearing edge gap here. They were always PERFECT.
Please refer bearing edge issues to the Ludwig drums back then: scarf joints = imperfect bearing edges. That's why many Ludwig rockers in the 60s and 70s liked muffled drums. The imperfect bearing edges on Ludwig drums made it so.
If you wanted your drums to sing back then, you bought Rogers. End of story.
Rock on!
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2/17/2019, 7:12 pm
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