Swivomatic
Registered: 06-2008
Posts: 37
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Nutbox
I really must get the Rogers Book.....I have seen it for sale on the web but as yet have not ordered one.........tut tut!
I was very interested to hear about the English Dynas. I think that my question to Eddie went as follows "So were Wood Dynasonic drums ever produced in England ?"to which he replied "No". Hopefully I will be in touch with Eddie again shortly on a personal matter when I will ask him about the prototypes..........Wow it would be interesting if one turned up! I have looked at some American ones which have been advertised on the Net and they go for silly money...certainly beyond my purse! I'd love one!
Incidentally if any of you guys across the pond have any questions for Eddie then let me know.
Eddie is an incredibly interesting guy and I have to say was really taken aback when I told him of the interest being shown by you guys in the USA in the drums which he helped to make in the 60's. I got the impression that he considers the English drums far better built than the American ones and totally agreed with Nutbox and I that they sound great and are largely undervalued compared with Rogers USA.
I do hope that all you guys have found the posts useful and interesting. More to follow...hopefully!
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7/9/2008, 12:34 pm
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Nut box
English Rogers Guru
Registered: 07-2007
Location: England.
Posts: 967
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Swivo, I've just checked the book and it says that the English wood Dynas were made by Eddie???????????
They have beavertail lugs which would date them to 1965-67. As I understand it Eddie move from the factory to a shop doing repairs in London. Maybe he wasn't in the factory when they were made then???? A mystery here.
I think ER drums do sound great and I understand Eddie's loyalty to the drums he helped to build, but better built than the US ones I don't know.
About the chrome. The guys here warn of the danger of using wire wool as it can scratch the chrome on US Rogers as the chrome is quite soft, but I had already done this on my English Dyna with no bad effect. So on that point I must go with Eddie.
I need to check the size of the lugs on my Mardi. With it being early (I believe) maybe they are imports????
Dave Seville I think has a grasp of the history when it comes to the drum industry. He publishes a bi-monthly newsletter called "The Old Drummers Club", so he is immersed in it. Also remember that story of how Ringo got his Ludwig kit in London in 1962/3 I think cos Ivor Arbitor(sp) was importing them.
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7/9/2008, 2:39 pm
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tommykat1
XP10 Dyna-Sonic Member
Registered: 06-2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
quote:
Swivomatic wrote:
I do hope that all you guys have found the posts useful and interesting. More to follow...hopefully!
Swivo, you and Nutbox are keeping us on the edge of our seats. All of us are fanatics about anything Rogers, and when new info comes up, it's like we're archaeologists envious of your digs.
Keep it up!
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7/9/2008, 9:10 pm
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Nut box
English Rogers Guru
Registered: 07-2007
Location: England.
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Swivo,
I have posted a question on the questions section here to see if anyone has heard of Josh Rogers. If not then I will try an email to Rob Cook next week.
Eddie paints a great picture of Josh presumably going around the UK looking for a drum company suitable to produce ER. I wonder which other companies he visited?
He must have been high up in the company as he was trusted with the job and likely a member of the family. There is a list of employees from the Covington era in Rob Cook's book but no mention of Josh. This does show that the idea for ER came from the US and not the UK which for some reason has always been high on my list of questions.
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7/10/2008, 2:06 pm
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Nut box
English Rogers Guru
Registered: 07-2007
Location: England.
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Swivo
I have been reading through your conversation with Eddie and I have a few questions that have arisen.
Firstly please pass on my thanks to Eddie for taking the time to help us this way.
Josh Rogers. Eminent members here say that it is believed that the Rogers bloodline died out with the passing of Cleveland Rogers in 1952, and the Rogers drum company was bought by Henry Grossman. They are not aware of any surviving member of the family who continued in the business. This is not to say that this did not happen, but can Eddie remember if Josh said he was one of the Rogers family? Does he remember what Josh’s position in the company might have been? Could he estimate Josh’s age or give any other clues?
As we have said, Rob Cook’s Rogers Book says that 10 wood-shell English Dynas were made by Eddie as prototypes. So, Eddie has no recollection of this? I am sure you are going to ask this. I think if one ever does surface we are going to be fighting over it.
Eddie says that the early B&B lugs were “imported”; I presume this means from Rogers in the US? Were these the only items that were imported at the start?
Did Ajax make their own triple flange tall hoops right from the start? Were hoops imported at all? – I am thinking here particularly of the 10-hole hoops for the Dyna as apparently they are very similar to the US ones.
On the subject of Ajax using fittings other than Rogers on ER drums. Has Eddie any knowledge of Premier parts being factory fitted on ER drums? ER drums often turn up on eBay with Premier bits on them. I have heard it said that Ajax occasionally used Premier parts in order to “use up components”. As you and I know Premier parts were very easy to come by in the 70s and Ajax had gone out of business in 1970 so I believe the presence of Premier parts is more likely to do with drummers modifying their drums when they could no longer get hold of parts from Ajax.
Getting on to the serial numbers. I know about the problems with dating other drums from their serial numbers. I have been on the Dolbear site and asked for people’s Ajax serial numbers and they told me to give it up as well. No ER owner though. The reason I don’t want to drop it is as follows.
The stamp inside the drum cannot just be for factory reference. The stamp included both a serial number and “Made in England” – the factory already knew this, and if the serial number was only intended for use in the factory it must have some meaning, and there is no harm in trying to decipher its use. As I understand it, in the US a serial number was required by law, presumably for insurance purposes and as a deterrent against theft and to identify stolen goods etc. Maybe the position was the same in the UK. So although records may not have been kept non the less the serial numbers do appear to be sequential and I think we have been very lucky that we both have numbers, and that mine are early and yours are late.
My early Mardi (late 61) 66536
Your English Dyna (late 65) 96809
30273 drums in 4 years
7568 drums per year
630 drums per month
So, my B&B lugged COB dyna has a serial number of 85353 for which the method above would give a date of mid 1964, a perfectly reasonable date. I had assumed it would be 63/64 as the COB Dyna was not available until 63 and after 64 they would be using beavertail lugs.
Also I have been talking to a guy who has this (I have been trying to get this off him but he is not having any).
A White Pearl ER snare (Premier hoops and a couple of replacement beavertail lugs) with a serial of 72326, which is very similar in construction of the shell to my B&B lugged Grey Ripple snare which I have a date of 1962 from the original owner (and is corroborated by fittings on the kit), and the method above gives a date for the above of the third quarter of 1962, again a perfectly reasonable date.
I know that only about half of these drums have numbers but when some of the ones that do have numbers don’t make any sense, then I will drop it, but so far so good. What about your other drums, the bass and the toms, can you see the serial numbers for those?
Thanks
Alan
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7/12/2008, 3:28 pm
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Nut box
English Rogers Guru
Registered: 07-2007
Location: England.
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Swivo
Could you run the name of Joe Thompson past Eddie when you next speak to him as a candidate for “Josh Rogers”.
ER became available in 1961 so Josh’s trip to the UK must have taken place in 1959/60 at which time there were probably only around 30 Rogers employees. So Henry Grossman can not have had many to choose from when he needed to select someone for the job.
The company was run by Henry Grossman the owner, Ben Strauss who took care of marketing and Joe Thompson who was the chief engineer. Joe would have been the most qualified when it came to all technical aspects associated with manufacture of Rogers drums.
Thanks
Alan
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7/14/2008, 2:42 am
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Swivomatic
Registered: 06-2008
Posts: 37
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Nutbox & you All,
Well I went to see Eddie Ryan today and what a gent he is and so knowledgeable. There isn't anything he doesn't know about drums and he doesn't even play them. He's a bass player!! I took my ER kit for him to have a look at. He was very impressed by it's condition and said that this reflected how well the drums were made originally although I have looked after it and they have always been cased and regularly cleaned.
However despite the condition I have taken the plunge and I am going to have a re-wrap in Marine Pearl.Eddie is also going to make me up a 14x14 Tom Tom using the same wood and techniques as employed when he was making ER's. He has some original nutboxes and I have obtained some Knobby fittings. Obviously not the real thing but it will be damn close. I have looked at the price of American Rogers Toms of the same size and they are prohibitive. I have never seen an ER 14X14 and Eddie doesn't think an English one was made but he may be wrong.He was anxious to see my ER COB Dyna but I had not taken it with me. I will take it when I see him next.
After discussing my requirements for renovation, I raised some more queries with Eddie concerning ER's. He now says that he remembers working on some wooden Dynasonic ER prototypes but what happened to these he has no idea.
He also met Buddy Rich when he came over to the UK for some concerts in the 60's and they discussed making an ER kit or at least a snare drum for him. But I gather from Eddie that this never materialised as far as he can remember. Turning to the ER drums and the fittings. Eddie was quite adamant that they they never used any Premier fittings on the drums but he confirms that they did use the Everplay heads and that the later heads did look like those as shown in the Rogers USA 1967 catalogue but they were made by Everplay and had the Rogers logo stamped onto them. So another form of deception...........I indeed thought that they were original American Rogers heads that were fitted to my late 1966 kit! I believe that the American ones were in any event made by Remo for Rogers if the catalogue discription is anything to go by. I haven't got the Rogers bible but I suspect that this is the case.
The lugs both B&B's and BT's on all the ER drums were imported from the USA. The Beavertails were a great improvement on the B&B lugs which we all know tended to split. Eddie showed me one and said that basically they were very poorly made. The hoops on the snares and toms were made by Rogers in the USA and Eddie thinks that this includes those on the ER Dyna's. The shell of the COB drums were made by Ajax or the Boosey and Hawkes subsiduary Edgware,probably in Birmingham. All the fittings including the lugs the snare frame,snare and snare strainer were made in the USA but the damper and the tension rods as I think we know were all Ajax. Eddie says the ER's tension rods were not as good as the American ones. The ER'S also had the different scrip logo.
As far as the knobby fittings were concerned, Eddie thinks that some early ones must have been imported from the States but the later ones were definately made using American drawings and tooling although there are differences in the design as we are aware.
I raised the point about Joe Thompson but Eddie has no recolection of him and is adamant that the guy that he spoke to was a Josh Rogers. He thinks this guy was in his 40's. He remembers feeling quite honoured that he had been selected by the company to speak to the guy. Eddie at this time was in his twenties. He's now 66 so that's a lot of years ago.
Eddie confirms that there was no significance as far as he was concerned in the numbers stamped on some of the drums and that they were merely for factory use. He says that this was similar to the situation concerning Gretsch whereas he is able to date a Ludwig kit extremely accurately.
Well I shall be seeing Eddie in about a months time when I collect my kit, so if there are any other questions let me know. I have thanked him for all his imput to date. I think actually that he is knocked out by the sudden interest in ER......particularly after they have been so derided over the years!
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9/16/2008, 9:56 am
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tommykat1
XP10 Dyna-Sonic Member
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Swivo, thanks for this great discourse. You are a keeper of the English Rogers flame. Cool that Eddie is hyped about the resurrection of ER by you and Nutbox as collectors.
Speaking of "nutbox." I see you refer to that name as a drum shell! Maybe I'm naive, but I didn't realize that Alan's screen name, NutBox, had any drum significance.
I learned something new today!
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9/16/2008, 10:44 am
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Nut box
English Rogers Guru
Registered: 07-2007
Location: England.
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Swivo, great stuff. No time at the moment to comment on some of these things. Lots nice info there. Heck I'm as jealous as ..........as ......... as........., I don't know what!
I've seen one 14x14 by the way, no two I have a pic.
TK, Nutbox is a term for a lug. I didn't realize that you blokes didn't use it. It refers to my preference for B&B lugs and how you would have to be a nut.
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9/16/2008, 12:08 pm
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Swivomatic
Registered: 06-2008
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Re: The making of English Rogers and the myth of shipped parts.
Hi Nutbox,
I'm jealous now.....you've actually seen a 14X14 ER Tom?
I would love to see a photo. What sort of lugs? B&B or BT's? Eddie didn't say that the 14X14 was not available it was just that he didn't seem to think that he had ever been involved in making one. It appears that whilst at Ajax(Boosey & Hawkes) the guys were moved around. One week they might be making bass drums hoops the next shells for snare drums etc... This especially applied when Eddie was doing his apprenticeship.
In the Rogers USA catalogue they also list 16X14 and 16X18. Do you know if any of these were available in the UK? I have no info. Eddie certainly remembers making the 20" BD's and 12X8" toms.
Incidentally, Eddie says that Dave Clark's use of the Londoner Kit really boosted sales of ER kits. That was not my reason for buying them however ..........my idols at the time Buddy and Louis were both using Rogers so it was an obvious choice! I won't repeat what I thought of DC's ability as a drummer!!
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9/16/2008, 12:34 pm
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